History, politics, people of Oly WA

Month: July 2009 (Page 2 of 2)

Last (last) word from me on Veldheer, gay rights and OPC

Ok, now I see what you mean. For OPCers, there is a strong line between church and state:

Thus, it is not only important to distinguish between the institutions of church and state, but the source of each institution’s guidance, and the definition of the purposes of each must be identified. It is not even enough to say that the goals of the state are temporal, and of the church eternal. It must be added that the sources of guidance and purposes are dramatically different. The essential interests of one are not the same as those of the other. As our confession defines the purpose of the state: “It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people” (WCF 23.3). Rulers are not tasked with promoting or enforcing the “true religion.” They are called to maintain civil order for all of its citizens, including Muslims, Jews, and atheists; and special revelation commands Christians to support them in this distinct endeavor.

And, more specifically:

Civil magistrates may not assume to themselves the administration of the Word and sacraments; or the power of the keys of the kingdom of heaven; or, in the least, interfere in the matter so faith. Yet, as nursing fathers, it is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the Church of our common Lord, without giving the preference to any denomination of Christians above the rest, in such a manner that all ecclesiastical persons whatever shall enjoy the full, free, and unquestioned liberty of discharging every part of their sacred functions, without violence or danger. And, as Jesus Christ hath appointed a regular government and discipline in his Church, no law of any commonwealth should interfere with, let, or hinder, the due exercise thereof, among the voluntary members of any denomination of Christians, according to their own profession and belief. It is the duty of civil magistrates to protect the person and good name of all their people, in such an effectual manner as that no person be suffered, either upon pretence of religion or of infidelity, to offer any indignity, violence, abuse, or injury to any other person whatsoever: and to take order, that all religious and ecclesiastical assemblies be held without molestation or disturbance.

That said, the points of these passages seems to be the protection of the church against state interference. Back in the day, with the Anglican and Catholic churches, there were strong ties between church hierarchy and civil government. A religions like the minority Presbyterians would seem to be interested in either severing these ties or at least ensuring the civil authorities didn’t cross the church/state line into the church’s authority.

What these don’t address is how Presbyterians should behave in the realm of civil government, when they are in fact in charge. I’ve found at least one area (capital punishment) where the church gives specific instruction of an area of civil government.

Last word on Veldheer, EBO and those Catholic bishops too

JLW over at Olyblog has the last good word on Veldheer:

When the Citizens for a Responsive Local Government were considering Karen’s candidacy (by the way, she did eventually receive the CRLG’s endorsement), we were aware of Karen’s religious affiliation, and speculated about whether it would impact policy decisions at the city. So I called her up and asked her about it. She told me that it wouldn’t be an issue, that she had no objection to same sex partner benefits. She and I had quite an interesting discussion about faith, and tolerance. Karen strikes me as an honest and genuine person. I trust her. I’m surprised that this is even an issue. Are we afraid that every Catholic politician is going to do his or her best to ban birth control? Are we afraid that Jewish politicians will insist that everyone have a bris? I just don’t see any red flags here.

Janet (?) does a much better job explaining than Karen did, but her explanation does open up more questions for me about CRLG’s endorsement process. Since it was so early in the season, it would have been great for them to provide the metadata surrounding their suggestions, including this story. They considered a lot of factors, and since their for responsive (and I assume open) city government, more details about what information they gathered would have been great.

Also, just a note to show that even us Catholics have crappy representation in our church hierarchy, just like Karen’s church:

The Washington State Catholic Conference (WSCC), which “represents the Catholic Bishops of the State of Washington on issues of public policy”, has posted a link to this notice on the main page of their website (hyperlinks are mine).

Opposing “unjust discrimination” implies that some discrimination is justified, that it can be just to discriminate. According to the bishops of Washington, it is just to destabilize and undermine LGBT families. The bishops believe it just to disadvantage children by preventing their LGBT parents from protecting them to the fullest extent of the law via domestic partnerships or marriage.

I came here for an argument

This one goes out to “p-man” on the original Veldheer thread:

M: I came here for a good argument.
A: No you didn’t; no, you came here for an argument.
M: An argument isn’t just contradiction.
A: It can be.
M: No it can’t. An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
A: No it isn’t.
M: Yes it is! It’s not just contradiction.
A: Look, if I argue with you, I must take up a contrary position.
M: Yes, but that’s not just saying ‘No it isn’t.’
A: Yes it is!
M: No it isn’t!

A: Yes it is!
M: Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
(short pause)
A: No it isn’t.

More on Veldheer and the Equal Benefits Ordinance

I didn’t go far enough and actually email Karen Veldheer about her views of the EBO, just Rob Richards did just that and got this response:

I believe in the separation of Church and State, and that city ordinances must be supported by elected leaders. I support the City of Olympia’s equal benefits policy. Regarding civil rights for minorities, including GLBT, the State of Washington has over 200 specific rights including many of the rights most important to GLBT which I support as well.

Rob’s thought’s on her response:

In her answer above, the second sentence, as written, says that she supports the EBO. The first sentence makes me wonder what she means by that. My take on this response is that Veldheer believes that elected officials should uphold the law, the EBO is the law, and so she supports it. The problem I have with that answer is that it doesn’t speak to her personal values around the issue, for instance, would she support repealing it if a campaign were launched to do so? What are her personal experiences around this? I’m left wondering many things.

Rob writes more, so its worth reading his entire post.

I tend to agree with Rob, the answer sounds like one from a person who is trying to balance deeply held religious beliefs with running for office in an extremely liberal town.

And, its not very clear where she actually lands on the issue, just that she supports this particular ordinance because she supports all city ordinances. But, how can that be true? Does she support the city ordinance that allows growth beyond what she feels acceptable, or the ordinance that allowed what happened to her house?

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